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« Focus | Main | Poor Cynthia Mongongu »

May 16, 2007

Comments

Camille

Yep, my saying "it's a one-day thing" was my 3 AM mind talking. (thunderstorm woke me up) Of course the Livestrong philosophy and message are important every day of the year. I've got my bracelet on.

Matt

Wow...a lot going on here yesterday afternoon/evening!

Happy LIVESTRONG DAY everybody! I don't wear my LIVESTRONG bracelet (I go into spacecraft-cleanrooms a lot and can't wear anything like that...it's silicone). Anyways, ok..I cruised thru the TBV transcripts the last 2 days as much as possible (echo others here: WONDERFUL JOB Over there at TBV...THANKS SO MUCH!) OK..so, let me see if I get this...USADA's position (from yesterdays proceedings) is that Floyd was using was NOT ONLY using testosterone Gel, but patches AND injections too?? Anybody else who read thru the stuff yesterday get this? (thats how they explain the differing lines)..hmmm...so, lets put this together. Stage 16 he bonks on the final climb due to NO team support (they had all dropped back unable to keep up) as he's riding at the front w/ the other contenders. So...next day he proclaims he's gonna GO FOR IT, the peleton lets him (it's HOT out and they are whipped from their efforts the day before putting time on him)...he gets his own car for total support the entire stage, allowing him to use CRAZY amounts of water and thus outride all his chasers. BUT...in USADA's thoughts, he decided he needed 'a little something extra'...but instead of maybe using a tiny amount that MIGHT go undetected in testing, he goes full on wild...injections, gels, patches...he's TESTOSTERONE MAN! He REEKS with the stuff! "Rides up the hill like he's on a Goddamn Harley" (thank you Dick Pound for sticking with the WADA 'unable to comment' rule!). Wins the stage... KNOWING full-well that he's gonna be tested...hmmm..seems if he used all THAT stuff all they would have to do would be to do a skin swab..he'd be soaked in the stuff! Does any of that make sense to ANYBODY OUTSIDE OF WADA/USADA??

On to AI...GOOD NIGHT last night! Kind of sad Lakisha wasn't there...would have liked to see what she could have done w/ special picked songs....that was her downfall all season..song choice. As to ranking them, wow thats hard..kind of apples and oranges and bannanas at this point..all very diff styles. Jordin has awesome talent (yes...for a 17 year old)...amazing maturity too..just looking at her you'd think she's mid 20's at LEAST! Blake...I like him more and more each week, but I guess I'm a bit 'outta' his primary age group for what I listen to...though I agree w/ Sara..I really liked the Maroon 5 song..really fits him. Actually I thought Paula picking a Sting song for him was very smart...his voice/style fit that well. And then Melinda...what can you say...she's still the best SINGER of the group. Too bad the producers picked Flatbush for a Tina Turner song for her...of all her stuff I cared for that the least...so much other TT stuff to choose from. VERY TOUGH to make an overall-ranking last night..but I finally gave Melinda 3 stars, Blake 2, and Jordin 1 (and each got that many call in votes respectively). Tonight will tell how AMERICA voted. I imagine all will do well in the recording industry...each has quite a fan base out there...which any music exec would be pleased to capatilize on. Be interesting to see what they come out with after this is all over with.

OK...back to work for me..busy busy busy!

Julie

Sending good vibes to Cathy's hubby! While we're at it, send some to my dad, he's having a bit of a tough moment in his treatment just now.

Camille - I know an 8-yr-old who loves Melinda and hates Jordin, so the youth vote is not lost on Melinda! Sara - LOL, Blake's "signal." I hope he's in the finale, just because he's fun to watch, but I'm fine with him not winning. I think he would be, too, then he doesn't have to be a slave to AI for his first album. I think Melinda or Jordin would be much happier being taken care of by AI.

Matt - well, I think they're saying he used T during the whole Tour, and used different methods on different days (Papp may testify to similar methods), but of course you still have a point. Re-watching S17 recently, it's so clear that it was nothing spectacular. I mean, it was great for Floyd to go out and do it, but in terms of the cycling itself, it really wasn't that special, when you look at how he did it and what everyone else did and did not do.

Giro - summit finish today, go Popo!

Theresa

Okay, I'm not sure were I read it, but the good Dr. Ferrairi(sp?) was quoted off his blog. He compared Basso in Giro,shoot, another rider in last years Giro, in terms of something that created a number of 1600or so for Basso, 1500 or so for the other rider and compared Floyd's S17, at 1300 something. I guess it was watts, maybe...but I found that interesting, because Floyd expended the least watts/numbers, of the 3 riders. He was talking about Basso, but threw in the info on Floyd.

AI was excellent last night! And I knew that Maroon 5 song!! I'm so proud. Blake did great!! And I would have much rather seen another TinaTurner song too. Melinda's voice amazes me. Jordin is so young, I can't get past the fact she has trouble with math, and that 's the biggest problem in her life right now! I think she'll have a great career. But I agree, Blake's gonna want to do his own thing, and he's going to be a star, no matter what. Jordin has her whole life, she needs to finish HS first. But Melinda's my girl!! Janann, are you hearing me girl?!!! I didn't realize that they give their first year/album whatever to AI, and Sara, you are right, Melinda and Jordin would be more comfortable doing that.

Now, on to TBV and breakfast to see whats going down!

Debby

Happy Livestrong Day! Best wishes to Cathy's hubby, Julie's dad, and can we add my dad too? He's doing great so far but every day is a gift.

Greg L is no match for Maurice. I'm not going to worry about that -- a few well-placed questions will tear his little lies to shreds and that will be the end of him talking(we can only hope).

I think USADA is just trying anything they can theory-wise to come up with something that fits their "created" evidence. Let's just hope that the scientists on the Landis side can present a really strong case.

And I want to know what that long box covered in black cloth is that TBV hinted at this morning...

Speaking of which, is there a way we can show everyone at TBV our thanks for giving up their lives and families for supplying us with the transcripts? I'd like to do something, but I'm not sure what. Ideas?

susie b

I love ya Sara & I'd never tell on you to your husband (lol), but I'm not on the Blake bandwagon. And just WHAT is up with his hair?! I thought for sure he'd have realized by now that it was a 'tragic mistake' to "go black" & "go back" to being blond by now! And I'm showing my age in that I almost always hate his clothes. Of course, compared to some of the other music performers out there currently, he's not so bad. A couple months ago I saw a band on the Tonight Show doing a hit single (don't know who they were) & I swear, they looked as if they had REALLY just rolled out of bed in clothes they'd been sleeping in for weeks! I wear better stuff doing yard work. And realizing that I sound like my mother 30 years ago pains me to no end...

Also, I meant to write this yesterday but Theresa's foray into delusionland (for which I had to perform an emergency rescue) sidetracked me. :) I thought Gwen Knapp's article was appalling. I can't believe she is a professional journalist in a reputable newspaper. It read to me like something on a blog (no offense people, but the way we write here is not what I expect in a newspaper). Her article was SO slanted & snarky, it reeked of her pre-judgement : "Landis' explanations have evolved considerably..from it must have been the Jack Daniels I drank to now the chromatograph is on the fritz", "his advocates are only a few HYPERBOLIC breaths away from accusing USADA of kidnapping the Lindbergh baby", "Suh took a ROUNDHOUSE SWING at Pound", "Suh moved into high DUDGEON", "after the lunch break somebody must have HOSED DOWN Suh", "Landis team doesn't know when to quit", "the defense should'nt need HISTRIONICS".... Worse is the way she described Jacobs & Suh's cross of Shackleton. I've read about 15 (not counting TBV) media write-ups of the 1st witness & no one except Knapp implied Jacobs requested a lunch break solely because Shackleton finally stopped making himself look like a dolt (& thus was making some good points & Jacobs wanted to stop that...). Also, the way she described Suh's cross was hostile & slanted. Bill Hue is a freakin JUDGE & he said it was an EXCELLENT job, albeit Suh was a bit feisty (my adjective). I also disagree with her position that the Landis team should have built their case around a few points. No, they need to do the shot-gun approach that someone here mentioned yesterday. (Sorry, can't remember if it was Julie or Janann or Yvette). If USADA's M.O. is to bring up a (different) rider's unrelated statement about his higher education as a way to show he is a liar, then you have to go for broke. I really think ONLY by pointing out a titanic amount of questionable evidence does Landis have a chance to get McLaren to vote on his side. Brunet is already a given to vote for USADA - the only way he would vote against USADA is if the head of LNDD fell to his knees & tearily confessed it was all a conspiracy & the evidence was manufactured & that because of his past evil deeds he will now come to America & become a Mennonite as a form of pennance...

A funny thing for me is that I had never seen Suh until Monday's video. For some reason, known only to my troubled psyche, I had imagined he was some 50yr old fat guy with a mustache & a bad comb-over these last 4-5 months! I had no idea that he was a fit, young, Asian guy! LOL! Plus, when I went over to the video Monday afternoon, I was confused because TBV said Suh was doing the cross & I kept looking for the fat guy with bad hair.... And I'm NOT kidding!

Camille

I actually have not managed to see any video or even audio so far, not knowing how to do so. Can anybody give me a very brief indication of the quickest way to get there to watch this ... circus? Mostly I just don't want to miss Greg LeGreatestEgoInLeMond's testimony.

Camille

Nevermind that question, I see the link on TBV. Yay!

CMehl

Thanks for all of your kind words for hubby Rob, and yes, good karma and prayers to all of "ours" dealing with the wee c.

Today is Livestrong Day, and I've decided tomorrow is I Hate Greg Lemond Day--it might spill over into Friday depending on when he testifies. I am giving myself permission to think negative thoughts about him all through tomorrow and Friday, and anyone who knows me will know this is very much against my sunny disposition, but I am doing it for Floyd, baby. Greg, scumbag, I only wish I knew something about voodoo.

BLAKE!!! I think he will survive with Melinda tonight. Just for Sara!

Debby

Cathy, if you have a bulletin board with pins, and haven't shredded *all* the SI photos of Greg yet...

Sara Best

Debby, the man got shot and came back to win the Tour de France. Cathy's going to need something a lot stronger than pins...

CMehl

Good one, Sara! I'm so glad my hatred for GL is not tainted by once finding him a cycling god....I'm too new to the sport to care about him so this is much easier for me than for some of you. My sympathies!!

And Sara, are you here to play today? We hope so! If I didn't own my own biz I would be fired by now. All I do it cruise the internet most of the day!

Sara Best

Oh, I'm always lurking about Cathy.

I love reading all the posts here throughout the day. If I hadn't already quit my job I'm sure they would soon fire me as well for the amount of time I spend surfing cycling sites and working on my extra curricular projects. I spent most of this morning at work researching an article I'm doing for the June issue of Pedal magazine on the role that fear plays among female riders.

I've spoken to sports psychologists and professional coaches and it's an undeniable phenomenon. But is it nature or nurture, what do you guys think?

Julie

Y'all are a hoot today. :-)

DZ sittin' 7th in the Giro, woohoo! Dizzy-jersey DiLuca back in pink.

Cycling News reports that Basso, Ullrich, and Fuentes were together in a hotel in Germany before last year's Giro. Curiouser and curiouser.

Matt

Cathy, I think you have a great idea (HATE GL day!)...is there a specific 'color' that should go with that? Maybe BLACK?

Sara, as to your query, I imagine it's complicated...but I have to go with nurture..background and such. You can all correct me if I"m wrong on this, but my take is how we are brought up. As a young lad, we 'dudes' were out throwing rocks, riding our schwin sting rays (EVERYWHERE), digging, climbing trees, etc etc..while the girls were supposed to be playing house, dolls, stuff like that. Now if the girls were more of the 'tomgirl' type out ripping it up w/ their brothers and such, then they have that adventurous side and will more likely do crazy stuff (such as downhill mt bike racing, rock climbing, etc). There are MANY amazing ladies out there shredding up the downhill bike scene...and I bet if you interviewed them their childhood was more of the 'outside fun' type than the 'inside wearing a dress/playing w/ dolls' type. Just my 2 cents worth on the subject..however far off/misguided it might be.

Oh...and Julie..if THEIR (USADA) contention is he (that would be TESTOSTERONE MAN, hereby referred to as TMN) was using the T gel, cream, patches AND injections all along, well..doesn't that show that their ORIGINAL testing procedures suck even MORE that we think? I mean, he was tested what..9 times? And only ONE came back positive?? If so then that's a pretty 'piss poor' :D test if you ask me!

Janann

Wow.....all of the attention I've spent focusing on Floyd's hearing made me almost completely forget about the Giro - something I'd been looking forward to all year! I'd LOVE it if Popo could really come into his own and do something special in this year's race! Yeah for DZ!!

Cathy, consider me on board for Hate Greg LeMond day! I have been COMPLETELY disillusioned by him and will have NO problem whatsoever getting past what I remember of his glory days. He has absolutely done this to himself. Hmmmmm what color should we wear for THAT???

Great rant today, Matt ;)

I liked the Police song choice for Blake, also. It was different from what he often chooses and I thought it suited him. No worries, Theresa -- I've gotcha covered for AI :)

Sara, I'd have to lean towards nurture for an explanation of fear in female riders (of course I'm in no way a doctor and haven't even played one on TV). Having spent so much time around young children, I see a big difference in their attitudes that often seem to be based on how they are treated by their families (with both natural and adoptive parents). Its often so difficult to distinguish the effects of nature/nurture on someone's personality, though. I'll be very interested in what your experts have to say!

TMN! LOL!

catherine

Ok, always coming in late in the convo, I will say acouple of things that hit me (while I am at work and can't wait til tonight or ya'll will be alseep...):

Cathy - the gods listen to directives that have some positve, not negatives, so try to imagine GL finding something so overwhelmingly desirable that he cannot resist (his wife makes him an offer she never made before, leading to the 'little head thinking' syndrome, hence depriving the 'big head' of needed blood/oxygenation and thus poor cognition).

As far as women in cycling, the estrogen testosterone issue is real. Men are risk takers and genetically programmed to go out and conquer/bring home the mastidon while women are genetically programed to protect the children and homefires. Here's a copy of an email from a friend of mine who's in cycling about this very topic:

"As you can imagine, I have always been sympathetic to women's cycling/racing issues. 1. I like women and 2. I married a top female cyclist. Unfortunately, after 25 years of watching women race at every level the reality is that women don't, 'ride just as fast and put in just as much work as the men.' Excluding the top 20-25 women in the country, the rest just ride around until the finish when they sprint to determine the winner. There's a reason they don't get the same coverage as the men. Women play it safe, they don't practice teamwork and they rarely animate the racing by attacking off the front and trying to get away. Too risky, might get tired... whatever it is, it's not very exciting to watch."

"Another reality is that racing a bike is not for everyone. You have to be very focused to be successful and you have to dedicate a large portion of your free time to training, to be successful. Those who can do that usually stand out."

Debby

Catherine --

I would like to ask your friend or you (and this might be fodder for Sara's article) how many female coaches there are out there, that female cyclists or teams can hire? How much training is available for male vs. female cyclists? I am wondering how many women have had coaches who teach teamwork and attacking off of the front, etc, and how many women just learn from watching the men's races? I guess my point is that if there is only a small number of women who have received coaching, that would explain your friend's estimate of 20-25 top women in the country vs. those that just ride around and sprint to the finish. I know where I live, there is just not the training and support available for women cyclists...essentially you have to already be really good before you can join a team where someone will hire a coach to help you get better.

Re: fear: I'll agree that it's hard for some women to overcome the dress-wearing, doll-playing parts of their growing up, but let's face it, those women probably aren't training seriously to ride anyway. I think that environment does play a role. Our local shop has "group rides" that are populated entirely by men. The guys are either racers or wanna-be racers and the few women that try to join the ride, presumably to get training and experience, are turned off by the fact that there is nothing that starts at their level and guides them upward. I know I am! We're moving to an area that has a bike shop with women-only rides, and I am curious to see how different that might be, when you don't have to start off being a racer in order to learn to ride. I hope that makes sense.

Sara, I think it's a great topic for an article.

CMehl

Sara, do you need any contacts with female cyclists for your report? I can provide some, at various levels in cycling. Just let me know.

susie b

Part of me just wants to say girls are SMARTER than boys & that's why they don't try testing the laws of physics, oh, but that answer is just too easy... :)

Nature vs nurture, well, that's a question for the sages! I can only offer up my experience. I grew up on a farm with 2 sisters. I was almost the opposite of my older sister in every way & yet we lived in the same house & had the same adult influences. I agree with a lot of what Matt said, BUT, a tomboy can ALSO be a girly-girl, as I am a walking example. To this day, I am a multi-sport fan & even though I don't participate as much as I used to, I still love various activities. On the flip side, I love clothes, jewelry, house decor, etc, pretty much a lot that is considered girly-girl, EXCEPT housework & sewing (HATE it & believe it is no more a 'female' thing than driving a car is a 'male' thing. We've just been brainwashed for centuries...:).

Until the age of about 12, I was utterly fearless & I don't know why. I did INSANE things "exploring" the farm (& on my 1-speed bikes) for which I am now paying with a bad lower back. I can almost guarantee you if they had "mountain bikes" when I was a kid, I would have done stuff like in that Bicycling.com Crazy Mt Biking video. Yet, I LOVED playing with Barbies & dressing up in my Aunt's old evening dresses & heels. And I wasn't the only girl like that! (And I bet a lot of you were the same way!) As I got older, I became more & more fearful & not really due to any very bad experiences (never broke bones, which ticked-off my friends no end & convinced them of the existence of "selective Guardian Angels"), but because I hit adolescence much like a speeding truck full of eggs hitting a brick wall... I do think one's environment can hinder or encourage the testing of boundaries but I also think you are either born with the adventurous gene or not (which is possibly adversely affected by estrogen). Hey, it's a THEORY! I do think there seems to be something unique in guys that they WELCOME having accidents & scars! I wanted to do crazy things but NEVER wanted to get badly hurt while guys seem to REJOICE in acquiring scars so they have physical proof of their insane deeds; something they can show when regaling others of their exploits. Come to think of it, I was always trying to HIDE what I was up to or my Dad would have put a stop to it, so maybe that's why I didn't want PROOF! LOL!

I also totally agree with Debby about the REAL reasons for the "lack of aggressive female riders". And Catherine, about your friend's assertion that women won't work together as a team, arghhh! It's been shown in countless studies that women work BETTER in groups than men - too many of the men are always trying to take over & be the TOP-DOG...

And then there's the whole 'girls are smarter' argument... :) :)

Matt

Susie, the 'girls are smarter' isn't an argument..it's pretty much fact....in general. Of course there are exceptions to every rule...like the women being 'geneticly dispositonied' or however you want to say it..to being less adventurous/danger-seeking and what not...and I recall some words from Marla Streb..(a mountain biking GODDESS)...years back... about how she digs scars...and she has PLENTY to prove it! She raced Cross Country AND Downhill for MANY years...quite successful in BOTH! I was actually hoping to see her at the recent Firestone mountain bike races..but alas, wasn't meant to be (I did see her BIKE though at the Team Luna tent!!) And there are plenty of guys out there who DON'T seek out thrills and such...I'm just not one of them. Jumping out of a perfectly good airplane: check! jump out of a hot air balloon with a rubber band tied to me: check! White Water rafting (class V I might add): check! Mt biking: check! Road riding: check! Multimillionaire playboy: weeeeeellll..5 out of 6 ain't bad! (BTW, I do housework too)...though I DON'T DUST! If I did it would be with a leaf blower...and everything better be glued down! I'll do laundry, dishes, vacuuming, cleaning, some cooking... but NO DUSTING! Thats where I draw the line!

catherine

You know, I learned from raising my son, that contrary to my feminist upbringing, men and women are not the same. It took Feminists more than 20 years to realize this. We are not the same. I believe we inhabit bodies that are run by a very smart brain and a somewhat unpredictable chemical soup that drives us to do things we don't always have control over.

My son Sean LOVES those online fantasy war games. He loves paintball. When he has his adrenaline up, he is happy. Now I have read studies that talk about the biologic response to cortisol and adrenaline in men vs women. Men for the most part, get really revved up and feel good, women don't. I think there is a historical (read thousands of years type history) reason for this. A survival reason. This does not mean ALL men and ALL women respond this way, just the majority, a statistically significant number.

Now that doesn't answer the question of who mentors women cyclists, nor even the question of is the men's version of cycling the only way. What if women were able to create a different version of cycling (by that I mean throw everything out and start from scratch)? What might it look like? Would it be fun to watch, or only fun to do? In order to be interesting or good, do women have to cycle the way men do? What about female leaders (business, political)? For a long time women followed the male model and behaved in a male way to move up. Since women are now more prevelant in all public arenas, a subtle shift has begun, at least in print discussions about the role of women in society.

The shift hasn't happened in my work world. The young women I know take the gains made for women in the last 50 years pretty much for granted. Perhaps that is how it should be. Off topic, a bit, I am disturbed by the whole "empower yourself through your public sexuality." Risky, and demeaning, in my opinion.

Debby, I shared your question with my friend. I'll let you know if he responds.

OK. Camille. I cannot figure out what one does to get live feed on TBV! Is there a site with video from the day's proceedings? I haven't seen anything! Waaaaaaaaah!!!

Camille

Catherine, I've just watched it live but don't know what you do to see taped. But go to floydlandis.com and click on the links, and the UID is LandisF, then the password is wuP2e8RU. After you sign in, look for Floyd's name on the page and click on whichever session you want. Good luck, don't know if this will help...

CMehl

It's confirmed on TBV that LeMond in on the witness list for Thursday. I just want to spit. Maybe I should go down there tomorrow afternoon, get in his face after his testimony or something. UGH! I did send in my request for a cred soon, think I will go down one afternoon just to lend moral support to the Landis camp. I don't really have much time to devote to it because of covering the Giro, but I feel really antsy sitting 90 mi away and not showing up for at least a few hours.

Theresa

Boy, talk about coming late to the party!! This is the first time since this morning, I've been able to get on the computer. At least to look here!
Regarding the girl/boy issue. I was a fearful girl. Never wanted to get hurt. But, my mother somehow reinforced it, by not encourging me. But an asthmatic didn't get to do a lot in my time as a child. Anything I acually accomplished, I did because of an inner drive. I went to college, finished school, and even drove without much "you can do it, girl!". To be fair to my mother, she had her own problems, and my biological dad, was out of my life when I was young.
Now, my sister, who has a different father, was a daredevil, and tried all kinds of stuff! But she's more child-motivated and homebody stuff than me. You know, the nesting thing. But, we were quite different than the families at the time, so there may be something to that..........boy, do I sound pitiful!!
It usually takes me really wanting to do something, to take a chance. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!
Hate GL DAY! Sounds good to me!!
Jeez, I have work to do. Talk to you when I get home!

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